As I’ve already said Joe Scarborough has been a friend to this blog and to DaTechGuy on DaRadio and if anyone expects me to throw him under the bus it’s simply not going to happen, Sicilians don’t do that.
That being said when it comes to his statements on Israel the last few days I think Joe is very wrong on several levels. Allow me to explain in some detail the fallacies:
1. The blame game:
Kay:There’s always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable little planet
Men in Black 1997
Joe’s initial comments concerning Israel came before the latest Hamas violation of the cease-fire but the problem he runs into is beyond that:
The United States of America — we cannot be associated with this if this continues. This is so bad, not only for the Israeli people, but for us.
The argument here is that it hurts the United States to be associated with Israel because of these actions but However it doesn’t matter what Israel does o how far they go they are to blame.
If they invade to take out the tunnels they are to blame for invading.
If they shell or use airstrikes to stop the rockets they are to blamed for the shelling
If they do not shell but merely cut off the cement used to make the tunnels
And if they do nothing and simply take Rocket fire then they are to blame because they don’t’ allow Hamas to pass the checkpoints into Israel.
Simply ask yourself if anyone internationally cares that Russia has been supporting Assad what kind of condemnation did they receive for this?
The bottom line is this: It doesn’t matter what Israel does or doesn’t do the left & the arab world will consider it a criminal state and will attack the US for supporting it.
2. The poor innocents:
Balton: If you love your brother, you must shelter him, hide him, protect him from the Mentiads. Remember what happened to your father.
Mula: My father didn’t fall into the hands of the Mentiads.
Mula: He was shot by the Captain’s guards.
Balaton: To save him from the Mentiads. At least he died a clean death. It was an act of mercy by the Captain.
Kimus: Oh well, thank you, O merciful Captain, for so kindly having Mula’s father shot down in the street like a dog.
Balaton: Listen, Kimus, let me tell you this. I would cheerfully strangle Pralix with my own hands to save him from those, those
Doctor Who: The Pirate Planet 1978
The second bit of nonsense in his argument involves civilian casualties
“This continued killing of women and children in a way that appears to be indiscriminate is asinine. . . .
Note the point being made, the reality that if Israel was targeting civilians there wouldn’t be 1500 dead but 150,000 dead by now, but we are not supposed to react based on the reality but what “appears” to be reality.
If you want to see reality take this quote from Hillel Neuer via Yid with Lid:
If in the past year you didn’t cry out when thousands of protesters were killed and injured by Turkey, Egypt and Libya, when more victims than ever were hanged by Iran, women and children in Afghanistan were bombed, whole communities were massacred in South Sudan, 1800 Palestinians were starved and murdered by Assad in Syria, hundreds in Pakistan were killed by jihadist terror attacks, 10,000 Iraqis were killed by terrorists, villagers were slaughtered in Nigeria, but you only cry out for Gaza, then you are not pro human rights, you are only anti-Israel.
Now in fairness Joe has in fact talked about the deaths in Egypt, and in Syria and in Afghanistan but a large chunk of the people currently all over Israel have not, as far as they are concerning the hundreds killed in Syria, the Christians expelled by ISIS and the woman stoned to death and even the shooting of “collaborators” is a non-story.
In fact the #1 target of the various Islamic groups have always been their fellow Muslims and/or arabs who simply aren’t the right type of arab or muslim.
This leads to another logical conclusion:
The left and the Arab worlds concern for the dead innocents in directly proportional to their ability to blame Israel and/or the west for said deaths.
3. Oh what comes next:
Jacob Woodling: Quiet! Brigham Young has twenty seven wives and he hasn’t had half the trouble with them that I’ve had with the two of you!
Elizabeth: Then simplify your life, Jacob. Sell me.
Jacob Woodling: But Elizabeth: you don’t know what you’ll get.
Elizabeth: I know what I’ve had.
Paint Your Wagon 1969
Joe’s other point is the fear of what comes next:
As much as we all hate Hamas, what is going to replace Hamas is going to be much worse. It is going to be a radical Islamist group instead of just power-hungry, corrupt people that despise Israel.
AllahPundit (via Stacy) made dismisses Joe’s argument thus:
If you take the “whatever comes next will be worse” logic to its ultimate conclusion, though, you’re forever left defending whichever bunch of degenerates is in charge at the time. Israel can’t oust Hamas because then Al Qaeda might take over; if Al Qaeda takes over, Israel can’t oust them or else ISIS might move in. If ISIS moves in, Israel can’t oust them or else a portal to hell will open in the ground and Hitler and Bin Laden will emerge from the earth to rule Gaza together.
It’s not a bad as far as it goes but given what we’ve seen in Egypt, Syria & Libya over the last couple of years I find it an insufficient counter Joe Scarborough’s point. One could credibly make the case the world would be better if there had been no revolts in any of those three states.
The actual error in Joe’s reasoning is actually illustrated by this seemingly unrelated post from Elder of Zion noting that the world (and Israel) is pretty much ignoring the rockets currently being shot from the West Bank:
The Abu Nidal Brigades of Fatah’s Al Asqa Martyrs Brigades helpfully gives us a tally:
34 N103 missiles .
173 107 missiles .
32 Grad rockets.
53 120 mm mortar rounds
23 80 mm mortar rounds
14 60 mm mortar rounds
One RPG-7 .
Moltka anti-missile shields.
At least three other Fatah terror groups have also fired rockets at Israel.
Why is Fatah doing this, because of a simple fact:
A senior Fatah official told me earlier this week in Ramallah that Fatah has felt obliged to fire some rockets against Israel, lest it be seen as collaborating with the Jewish state.
This is Fatah’s defense for war crimes – because they don’t want to look too peaceful to their own people!
Think about that for a second, the supposedly moderate Fatah, the people who are simply interested in living large off of their own corruption and the foreign aid that pours in feels obliged to attempt to attack Israel to prove to their people that they are interested in killing Jews.
That’s the dirty little secret, if there was an election in the west bank, in Gaza on peace or war with Israel, the vote would be overwhelmingly for war.
The same would be true if such a vote took place in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran Libya and even Iraq. The people are overwhelmingly in favor of destroying the Jewish state.
And let not forget what protesters across Europe are saying:
Residents of Frankfurt and Dortmund were horrified in mid-July to see neo-Nazi groups join hands with left-wing Islamists in a grim chant: “Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas.” The center of London was blocked on July 19 by thousands who gathered in front of the Israeli embassy in Kensington to shout their hatred for Jews.
Not to mention Amsterdam, the city of Spinoza, Europe’s capital of tolerance, where in certain neighborhoods it has become practically impossible to wear a yarmulke in public without running the risk of being insulted or assaulted.
At the Tablet they really nail it:
Rahman Azzam Pasha, the head of the newly formed Arab League, spoke for his “honor group” when he threatened that “if the Zionists dare establish a state, the massacres we would unleash would dwarf anything which Genghis Khan and Hitler perpetrated.” As the Armenians had discovered a generation earlier, the mere suspicion of rebellion could engender massacres.
Instead a group of Jews who survived Hitler’s ovens not only were not massacred but defeated the arabs again and again from 1948 all the way to 1973 (notwithstanding Egypt’s self-delusion celebration of their “victory” in that last war. For a culture based on honor or saving face that is intolerable which is why 70 years later these people are still considered “refugees” )
If the refugees from this Zionist aggression disappeared, absorbed by their brethren in the lands to which they fled, this would acknowledge the intolerable: that Israel had won. And so, driven by rage and denial, the Arab honor group redoubled the catastrophe of its own refugees: They made them suffer in camps, frozen in time at the moment of the humiliation, waiting and fighting to reverse that Zionist victory that could be acknowledged. The continued suffering of these sacrificial victims on the altar of Arab pride called out to the Arab world for vengeance against the Jews. In the meantime, wherever Muslims held power, they drove their Jews out as a preliminary act of revenge.
It’s no accident that arab nations are pretty much Judenrein and remains the explanation for every problem in every arab state to wit:
Ahmed Sheikh, editor in chief of Al Jazeera,blames Israel for the lack of democracy in the Arab world:
The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems. … It’s because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.
Sheikh’s conclusion is not that ending the fight with Israel might lead to democracy, but rather that once the West lets the Arabs win against Israel, then they’ll build democracies.
Note that phrase, “letting them win”, as if they would have destroyed Israel if it wasn’t for the west, let’s not forget that during the 1967 war Egypt & Jordan openly debated if they would claim their air forces were decimated by US & British troops because it could not be conceded that they were crushed by mere jews.
The M-75 is a technological marvel–a homemade medium-range rocket capable of striking Tel Aviv, developed despite stringent Israeli import restrictions aimed at preventing Hamas from doing just that. It’s a purely offensive weapon with no defensive purpose, and Palestinians love it. An enterprising Gaza merchant even named a perfume after it two years ago, when it was first deployed, and Reuters reported that sales promptly soared.
It all adds up to this bottom line: No matter who is in charge in Gaza their ultimate goal will be the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews and anyone who doesn’t understand this is deluding themselves.
Joe’s primary worry is a Hamas victory in the PR department but that really can’t be helped due to the simple fact that Israel given the choice of destroying their enemies or containing them has chosen the more difficult containment option which does occasionally involves destroying the arabs ability to shoot at them and that Hamas given the choice between live Palestinians and dead ones that harm Israel’s reputation will choose dead ones every single time.
Until Palestinian and islamic culture changes that’s simply how it is.